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In this episode, Messellech “Selley” Abebe chats with Kim Kelly about the ongoing fight against child labor, the vital role unions play in protecting families, and why labor rights are children’s rights. Kelly is a journalist, organizer, and author whose work highlights the often-overlooked struggles of young workers. Together, Abebe and Kelly explore how historical and modern labor movements have shaped protections for kids, the dangers that remain in workplaces across the country, and how families and communities can advocate for safer, fairer futures. This conversation emphasizes the importance of awareness, solidarity, and action to ensure every child can grow up free from exploitation.

To learn more about Kim Kelly and her work, you can check out her book Fight to Win, and follow her on Instagram, and Twitter. 

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Transcript

Kim Kelly  0:02  

One thing that is worth emphasizing, especially as someone who’s studied, and talked about, and written a heck of a lot about labor history in this country, is that child labor never disappeared. We fought against it, sure, but it didn’t go anywhere, especially, you know, for younger like immigrant children, black and brown children. There are kids right now working in fields in California, and slaughterhouses in the Midwest, and poultry plants in the south like that never went away, and it’s getting worse right now those conditions are going to become more dangerous and more hazardous and just more messed up for young workers and for kids. As you know, we, we kind of stare down this moment of major labor laws under threat and safety regulations being pulled back.

Selley Abebe  0:55  

What happens when labor protections unravel and kids are caught in the gears? We follow the thread from factory floors to family budgets, and ask why the people making the rules keep looking the other way. That’s ahead on Speaking of Kids.

Selley Abebe  1:12

Hey, ambassadors, I’m Mesellech Abebe, but call me Selley. I’m so glad you’re here today. Whether you’re folding laundry, or dodging Legos barefoot, or you have a minute of solitude, driving and running errands. You made it. Congratulations. We’re so glad to have you here. Now today’s episode might surprise you. When I say we’re talking labor law, you might think picket lines and pensions and maybe some old black and white photos of coal miners, but my guest today is here to remind us that labor rights are kids rights, and that everything from lunch breaks to school lunch is part of the same long story. Our guest is a journalist, an organizer, and true story was once the heavy metal editor at VICE. Her path to labor advocacy started with a childhood strike in her mom’s living room, and eventually brought her all the way to writing a best selling book and a second one just for kids. A woman after our own heart here at Speaking of Kids. She knows the history, she’s lived the fight, and she wants your kids to know they’ve got a place in this movement, too. Kim, thank you so much for being with us today. 

Kim Kelly  2:30

Thanks for having me.

Selley Abebe  2:32

So, you know, let’s start with the fundamentals, so our listeners can get a baseline of understanding around what labor movements and unions mean. For some, the first thing that comes to mind may be strikes, better pay, maybe collective bargaining, but many don’t fully grasp what unions do or why they’re still so critical, especially for kids and families. Can you break it down for us?

Kim Kelly  2:55  

It’s true. It’s really unfortunate that a lot of folks, a lot of kids, myself included, don’t really learn that much about labor history, and about unions, and about these centuries of struggle and progress that have come because working people have organized and stood together. I mean, of course, you know, if you have a union job, get to work under a union contract, which is a legal document that says, hey, the stuff that you bargained for, that you sat down with your employer and were like, we need this, we need this, that’s set in stone. And that does involve wages and working conditions and your benefits, and when workers go on strike, it’s generally because the employer is not holding up their side of the bargain. But unions and the labor movement in general, they’ve done a lot more than just help out individual workers and individual workplaces. Yes, that’s a big part of it. But in this country, I think we’re down. The numbers aren’t great. I think we’re down to about a little less than 10% of workers are in a union, and there’s a heck of a lot more workers in the country. And thankfully, the work that union members throughout the centuries have put in has benefited everybody. We say, you know, you can thank unions for the weekend, or the eight hour work day, or so many of the really crucial safety protections and regulations and legislation that keeps all kinds of workers, all kinds of people safe and protected on the job. I mean, we’re at this moment where a lot of those protections and those, those agencies are kind of under threat, but we got them in the first place because of unions, because workers fought and even died for things like basic labor laws. Having a work day that didn’t mean they had to, you know, stay in the mines for 16 hours a day. There’s so much history there, and I think it really is a shame that people don’t know that much about it. I’m trying to do something about that. And one of the reasons it matters so much for kids and for families is that even if you aren’t in a union family. Exactly, you still benefit from all that work that other folks put in because your parents or your siblings or your other family members when they go to work, they have those protections. They have that time off. If something goes wrong at work, they get hurt or their employer does something wrong, they have the ability to get that fixed. They have legal rights. And before the labor movement really got going, that just didn’t exist. It feels kind of, kind of wild to think about, but for a really long time in this country, workers didn’t have any protections. You were just another cog in the machine, and that changed because of labor unions and because of the people that put in that work.

Selley Abebe  5:43  

Thank you for giving us that overview. Kim, I think that was really important. And you know, you’ve been reporting on and organizing with labor movements for most of your adult life, but you were aware of the labor movement throughout your childhood. When did you realize unions were helpful to kids and families?

Kim Kelly  6:01  

You know, one of our favorite little family stories, I can’t remember how old I was. I was pretty young, and I remember I went on strike. I was a one person picket line because my mom smoked at the time, and I didn’t like that, so I hid her Marlboro reds, because this is the 90s, and I went on strike in the living room, and she did not like that very much. A lot of employers don’t but my dad, who was the union guy in the family, thought it was so funny. She eventually quit. So you know, labor gets the goods. Really being able to grow up in a union family, where my dad were construction. He was with the operating engineer. So were my uncles, one of my granddads, my other granddad, my favorite one, was a steel worker. My grandma is a teacher. It was really clear that we were able to live, have the life we had, which is still just regular, working class, rural family. I knew they had good jobs. We didn’t worry yet. Maybe we didn’t splash out. Maybe we had to spend more time shopping at Walmart than some other kids in my class. But it worked out, okay. It really wasn’t until, gosh, I was in high school, and my mother got really sick when I was about 17. She collapsed at work, and it they turned into this really intense medical situation that we’re still kind of dealing with, but at that time, the only reason that we were able to get her the care she needed, that she was able to stay in the hospital for so long and then later go to rehab, is my dad was in a union. He had good union health insurance, and I really realized, like, this is kind of standing between me and my family and the abyss, and if we hadn’t had that, none of us would have made it out of there, in as well as we have. I mean, still, even then, like, we had to sell stuff, we had to raise money. It wasn’t her hospital bills were really, really high, but we still have her because my dad had that insurance, and that really just kind of emphasized to me, like, okay, unions, I sort of always knew they were a good thing, because that was just in the background in my life and my family, but that really just kind of planted a seed, I suppose, in my head that like, Oh, those are those are really good to Have because her employers didn’t do anything to help. She didn’t have a union. She was on her own. It was just our family, our community and my dad’s union that kept us going. So most of, I guess, my adult life, when do you count as an adult for a good amount of my life, before I started writing about labor. I spent it in the music world, in the music business, in the heavy metal world, and I never really thought that I would get a chance to be part of a union, even I knew they were a good thing, because I always wanted to be a writer, and I didn’t really know that, or think there was a place for writers, because I just, you know, coming from that blue collar background, I thought, oh, unions for you know, construction workers and teachers and steel workers. I didn’t think there was really an option for someone who’s writing about heavy metal on the internet. But as it turns out, there was. I was living in New York at the time. I was working for a media company called vice where I was the heavy metal editor. A couple weeks after I was brought on full time, there some coworkers pulled me aside and asked if I’d be interested in unionizing. And I said, Oh, thank God, I’m new, but I can tell we need that. I got super, super involved, and it really became I would kind of joke that labor became my new favorite band because I was spending so much more time like reading labor books and talking to our unions, labor lawyers and representatives and really just getting a feel for this whole new world. I thought it was the coolest thing, especially when we want a really good first contract. And that’s kind of what. I precipitated my shift in towards covering labor more than music, because I kind of realized that this is something, honestly, much like heavy metal that is so cool and has so much history, it really helps people. But a lot of folks don’t know it’s there, or don’t think that it’s for them, and the same way that, you know, Cannibal Corpse might just turn out to be your cup of tea if you give them a shot. Being in a union can make your life better in really tangible ways too, honestly and just realizing, after I got out into the workforce, out into the world, how lucky I was to be from a union family, to have had that foundation, and to really have had that early education into that, into what unions were and how they could help a working class family like ours. You know, when I was at vice and we were organizing, I would talk to my coworkers, and it wasn’t that they were anti union or had opposed the idea. Really, a lot of them just didn’t know what a union was, or know how that could benefit them. So I got to be able to pull from my own experience to be like No, trust me, if you have the option you want that union card. And I think that is one benefit that that union kids kind of have, because they grow up knowing that you know that it’s not just you against the world. It can be us too, which is why I love, you know, I have so many friends who are, you know, having kids, or already have kids and bring them to picket lines and bring them to labor events. I’m like, Ah, you don’t even realize how much of a, much of a leg up this is, which I guess is kind of why I wrote this book. For all the other kids that don’t have that leg up like because they all deserve to know.

Selley Abebe  11:45  

You know, at First Focus, we often times say every issue is a kid issue, and we have a weekly newsletter that goes up called the Kid Angle. And I think for a lot of people, they don’t make that connection and how beneficial unions and just labor rights and just being aware of this topic is for kids. I know me personally, my dad was a civil engineer, worked construction, and there was a difference when he was part of projects and companies that had a union and those that didn’t, especially when so much of your work is based on physical conditions, right?

Kim Kelly  12:22  

Yes, and showing kids early on that it doesn’t just have to be you on your own, like you have options. There are protections. There are people that care and will have your back if you need it. I think, honestly, that was such a valuable thing for me to learn, because I think that really impacted the way I approached work and approached, you know, challenges throughout my life. It’s really precious, because everything that impacts a parent impacts a child, and negatively or positively, and being able to just ensure they know like look, like things might be tough right now, but we have someone who has our back now. We have options. We have these rights. It’ll be okay. It’s not just us against the world. And that’s it’s really something crucial to take with you as you get older and you start entering the workforce yourself, I think about, you know, some of the stuff I put up with when I started working when I was 16, and honestly, if I had known more about unions and about labor, then I like to think I wouldn’t have put up with quite so much of it. And so the more kids know about their rights and about just their, their worth and their dignity as people and as new workers, I think that’s going to make it. Really does make all the difference.

Selley Abebe  13:41  

Absolutely. And I mean, you know, to that point, child labor is still a real issue, both in the US and globally. You know, at the same time, the labor movement has historically fought for protections that directly benefit children. You know, like the 40 hour work week that you mentioned earlier, safety laws, the right to an education. How do you see the fight against child labor intersecting or even clashing with the broader labor movement today?

Kim Kelly  14:09  

It is such a scary time for that because, like, you know, we’ve seen really the past couple years, this really intensive push from, I mean, specifically, Republican governors, to try and loosen the existing regulations and cut down on safety precautions and just slight benefits like lunch breaks and just the most basic things for increasingly younger and younger workers. And one thing that is worth emphasizing, especially as someone who’s studied and talked about and written a heck of a lot about labor history in this country, is that child labor never disappeared. We fought against it, sure, but it didn’t go anywhere. Especially, you know, for younger like immigrant children, black and brown children, there are kids right now working. In fields in California and slaughterhouses in the Midwest and poultry plants in the south like that never went away, and it’s getting worse right now. Those conditions are going to become more dangerous and more hazardous and just more messed up for young workers and for kids as you know, we we kind of stare down this moment of major labor laws under threat and safety regulations being pulled back, and the sort of anti science, anti health approach that the administration has taken. And it really it sucks, because people did put a lot of work into getting the legislation and the protections that we do have. And I really think that the labor movement writ large, we have to make sure not to forget about the kids, not to forget about these young people who are in these impossible situations. And it’s difficult in a way, because, you know, you can’t quite unionize a bunch of kids. You could, you could at least have meetings and organize them. But they have, they have school. They have a lot going on, but at the very least connecting with their parents and their local community and trying to engage with these recalculture politicians to emphasize like, it is not okay that a 16 year old is now able to work overnight shifts in some parts of the country, it is not okay that a 14 year old is at risk of losing an arm in an industrial machinery situation. It makes my brain melt a little bit, because we have access to history books, we see how bad it can get, and yet the pursuit of profit and the disregard for human rights and for kids. Human Rights has put us in this position, and I’m not in charge of the whole movement. I guess that’s probably a good thing, but if I was, I would very much encourage unions and labor organizations and worker friendly politicians to ensure that this issue does not get kind of lost in the sauce. You know, there’s a lot going on, obviously, but we need to ensure that the most vulnerable among us are being protected and are not forgotten. And gosh, it has been a focus of the labor movement for such a long time. I mean, I’m here in Philadelphia, we have a historical marker right by City Hall, recognizing Mother Jones and her March of the mill children, which was in the early 1900s Mother Jones this iconic, like real tough, real fun labor organizer who spent a lot of time working with coal miner. She was an Irish immigrant herself. She was a huge opponent of child labor, which you can believe it was even worse back then. There was no protections, there was no recognition that young bodies needed sunlight or breaks or food or care, and she led this march of hundreds of children who worked in the mills like clothing factories. Essentially, she led them from Philly all the way up to the president at the time summer house in New York, just to draw attention to this issue. And honestly, maybe we need another March of the farm worker children and the poultry children, or just any children who care and whose parents care, because there’s so much going on, but we can’t forget about them. Just because they can’t pay union dues doesn’t mean that they’re part of this movement too.

Selley Abebe  18:29  

Okay? Ambassadors, we’re going to take a short break when we come back, Kim takes us into the modern day fight against child labor, the power of Gen Z organizers and why a death metal band called bolt thrower just might belong on your parenting playlist. Stick around. We’ve been talking with Kim Kelly about unions, labor history, and how the rights we take for granted didn’t just appear they were fought for, like tooth and nail fought for we’re picking up right where Kim reminds us that kids have always been part of that struggle, even when the headlines don’t say their names. You know, my kids love Mr. Beast, and you may have deeper insight, but I went down a rabbit hole, because I think he is just so fascinating in the sense that you know commitment and consistency to a craft and something that you’re passionate about can get you really far. But he recently elevated the issue of child labor laws in the cocoa industry, in the chocolate industry, okay, yeah, it’s pretty fascinating, but he elevated it because he ultimately had to make the choice between to keep or to move his factory, because he came out with Mr. Beast bars.

Kim Kelly  19:47  

Right, Ive seen him.

Selley Abebe 19:50  

Yeah, yeah. My kids made me go to Walmart and find them. I think now they’re more widely sold but.

Kim Kelly 19:57

Are they any good?

Selley Abebe 19:58

They’re actually delicious. And I’m a baker.

Kim Kelly 20:01

okay, so you know quality.

Selley Abebe 20:03

And I studied in Switzerland for a little bit, and I just love chocolate.

Kim Kelly 20:06

So you know chocolate.

Selley Abebe 20:07

I know chocolate. And these bars are actually very good, and I like the size. They’re a little smaller, but he elevated this issue, so he might be the one to kind of and definitely has the resources to engage in a child labor.

Kim Kelly  20:23  

Honestly, we need all the help we can get. Like, if we can convince them to, like, throw some, I don’t know, like, at a maze or something, maybe we can get him on board.

Selley Abebe  20:34  

But, you know, Kim my kids are now growing up during the growth of AI, you know, and from a labor perspective, what should we as parents and aunts and uncles and community members be cognizant of, and how do we protect workers rights for our kids’ future?

Kim Kelly  20:53  

Oh, it’s scary, like I’m a writer, so having some sort of mysterious force that can summarize something that took me more than a few minutes to write and research and report is stressing me out, too. And actually, my union, the writers get of America East, they were part of a big strike a year or so ago, and AI protections was a big focus of their demands, because there were screenwriters who were facing loss of work because of AI scripts and actors who were facing this kind of terrifying proposition of having their likenesses used without their actual bodies, like it’s it’s all very sci fi, in a way that is really spooky, but honestly, there’s also such a deep labor aspect to it, because it seems to me, and I’m not an tech expert, but it seems to me that so many of the uses that AI is being used for, it’s impacting artists and independent creators, and it’s not really being used to make people’s lives easier. It’s being used to kind of make people’s lives worse and more hollow and actively hurt artists and writers, just everybody who you would think the world would not want to automate away like, I think there’s this, this sort of almost incredulity about the fact that AI and the sort of machine assisted Whatever situation we’re in, like, they they should be figuring out how to make it do the dishes, or how to do the most dangerous, like toxic disposal jobs, like, it should be making people’s lives easier. Oh, that’s a whole that’s a whole other kettle of fish, I suppose. But I think if you have like, a little person who is trying to figure out what’s real and what isn’t and how to value the work that people put into things like videos and books and paintings, I think is a really crucial moment to be explaining how that work works like a real person made this like, maybe, let’s watch A video on what it looks like to paint something like this. Or maybe let’s, let’s listen to a podcast about music production like I think it we have an opportunity now, when the technology is still kind of new, to really make sure that the generation who’s going to come up with it being even more infused in their day to day life, to understand and recognize that this is built on actual labor and work and love that people are putting out into the world just because you could ask chappy tea or whatever to like, write your book report that’s not that’s not helping you, and it’s not helping the world, and it just means you’re learning less, and it’s Taking away from the people that put in all that work to make sure that information exists. I really just think that we have an opportunity before the younger generation, before AI becomes so commonplace, to make sure they at least understand that this is new and it’s not necessarily fair. Like work has value, creative work has value. Just because you can do something in five minutes and get like a so so facility doesn’t mean that it’s not worth looking for the real stuff and supporting the real stuff and making the real stuff we want the next generation to paint and write and create poetry and learn to play instruments like we don’t want to lose that. Just because it’s easier doesn’t mean it’s better. And I guess that’s a good lesson for any kid about anything, right? But especially when it comes to that creative labor like it, it has word that matters. Like, I’m not a parent, but I do not envy y’all trying to thread these needles.

Selley Abebe  24:40  

I appreciate that, and I appreciate your insights. And this may be inspiration to your second book: Fight to Win: Heroes of American labor. It’s a book written for young readers in mind. What is your hope for when kids read the stories?

Kim Kelly  24:58  

So this is the young readers edition of my first book, Fight Like Hell: The Untold History of American labor. And I’m so excited that I got to do this. It almost started, not as a joke, but I just sort of tossed off on Twitter one day, like, what if I wrote a kid’s book? And people were like, what if you did? And then my agent was like, you know, you could. It all kind of snowball from there. I am perpetually giving myself homework, but such is the life of a writer, and I’m really, really happy that I have the opportunity to share these stories with the younger generation, because just like you know, I hoped to reach adults and maybe more advanced readers with my first book, and show them that the history of labor in this country is so vibrant and diverse and frustrating and illuminating and inspiring, and that they have a place in it. I think having the opportunity to show that to kids is going to be even more valuable, because, like we said earlier, not a lot of kids get a lot of education about labor history, about unions, about anything, and if they do, it’s probably little surface level, right? They’re not gonna necessarily get into the nitty gritty or the weeds or the complicated parts, and they’re probably not going to hear that much about people that don’t have statues or days named after them, right? Like Walter Reuther, maybe Cesar Chavez, that’d be nice, but you’re not necessarily going to learn about people like, you know, Sue co Lee, Chinese garment worker who helped lead a strike in Chinatown in the 1930s or Maria Moreno, who was an indigenous and Mexican mother of 11, who became the first female farm worker to be hired as a union organizer in the country, or Ben Fletcher, a black dock worker who helped organize an interracial union in 1910 in Philly that ran the South Philly docks for a decade. Like those people are so cool and they did so much, and they’re just not as available, but they should be, because I wanted, when I was putting this book together, and in the other book too, I wanted to ensure that it had as many kinds of people and kinds of stories as possible, because I wanted anyone who picked it up to be able to find themselves in there read about someone just like you, of your identity, your background, your language, your whatever, however, you know, you identify yourself who has done something so hard and so incredible, and even if they lost the work they did, built up a foundation for the next round of people to keep pushing. I think that’s so critical, especially for kids who are, you know, feeling marginalized or feeling like they and their communities are under threat, who maybe don’t know as much, but maybe they don’t come from union family, maybe their community or the industry their families are in is less likely to be unionized, and like those, kids need to know that they have not only the option to fight back, but like people, Just like them have done it before. I really hope that that is something I’m able to share with a lot of kids and young people and their parents, because everyone needs to know and deserves to know this history. It just hasn’t been made accessible, and I’m just one person, but I feel very strongly that I need to use whatever platform I’ve kind of cobbled together over the years to to get that out there. Because if I had known about people like this when I was a teenage girl working in a kitchen, there’s some things that would have turned out a little differently for my bad boss, you know.

Selley Abebe  28:35  

And I mean to that point, Kim, you know, Gen Z is already leading labor organizing in some industries. What lessons from you know, some of the things that you just mentioned are most critical for the younger generation to carry forward?

Kim Kelly  28:51  

I mean, there’s so many cool union efforts and so many workers doing amazing things, but we gotta shout out Starbucks. Right the Starbucks union drive and the successful unionization of over 500 Starbucks stores throughout the country, led predominantly by young people, by queer people, by trans people, a lot of black and brown workers at the forefront of this and it’s totally revitalized the labor movement in a way that we haven’t seen, At least since I’ve been paying attention. And one thing that makes me really appreciate them as an example, outside of their success, outside of like, the very real way they embrace diversity and they platform and and follow like some of the most marginalized people who are part of their their efforts, is that they’re not afraid to make connections between the work they’re doing and the labor movement with other movements, other social justice movements and political movements and racial justice movements, they make it very clear that them fighting for better working conditions and better wages is one piece of the puzzle, but they’re also. Always standing 10 toes down for their trans coworkers. They’re always talking about Palestine. They’re always talking about racial injustice and about Black Lives Matter, even after a lot of other corporations kind of tuck that one under the rug like it’s very clear that anyone watching the work they’re doing, like, Oh, this is all connected. Maybe I hadn’t thought of that before, because I think there is this, this kind of inclination to separate different movements into little buckets right, like, women’s rights are over here, queer liberation is over here, black power here, brown power here, disabled workers here, and that it gives us a little space to do deeper analysis. But it’s not what life looks like. Because, like, I like to say, every person who is part of any movement for justice, whether it was looking at the civil rights movement or movements for bodily autonomy or right now, people are protesting against authoritarianism in this country, almost everybody at those protests has to go to work on Monday, and they probably don’t like their boss very much. So the labor struggle is part of every struggle, and I think that younger workers really understand that in a way that, gosh, even my generation didn’t quite click, and I’m sure that Gen alpha will be even more radical than my wildest dreams.

Selley Abebe  31:26  

And on that note, I already know you’re gonna have an amazing answer to this question. We have a Speaking of Kids playlist, and we ask all our guests for a song or an album that they lean on when, actually, up until this point, I’ve been saying when times get rough and you’re just having a bad day or a bad moment, but where do you turn to? Kind of get some inspiration. What’s your go to? Song or playlist?

Kim Kelly  31:52  

So I’ve been in the heavy metal world for a really long time, and my tastes run a little more gruesome than your average girl. One of my favorite bands to like really get me going is this British death metal band called Bolt Thrower. They’re super Anti Fascist, they have great politics, and they’re huge nerds. All of their, their whole song concept is around this tabletop game called Warhammer, and their bassist, Joe Bench was one of the first women I saw playing in a band that heavy, so I always had the soft spot for her, but they’re just the best. And honestly, they are kid friendly, in a way, because there’s no swears or anything like that. There’s a lot about like warfare and glory, but it’s a much more chill version of Game of Thrones, I can tell you that. But those ones loyal is, is a really good one. And if I’m just being like a little little lighter mood, like, I love Bruce Springsteen, I love Billy Bragg, like the classic, like labor tunes do get me going. Like Tom Morello “Rage Against The Machine”. It’s, it all depends, but Bolt Thrower is always going to be my like, “I need to take on the world”, music.

Selley Abebe 33:05

I love that.

Kim Kelly 33:05

So if I can get one more person to listen to him, that that is a win for me, baby.

Selley Abebe 33:13  

I mean, we will add that to the list. I’m pretty sure we don’t have any heavy metal currently, so it will be a nice addition.

Kim Kelly  33:21  

I cannot wait to hear what your what your listeners think.

Selley Abebe 33:24  

Kim, thank you so much for your time. It was so nice having you.

Kim Kelly  33:27  

Yes. Thank you so much.

Selley Abebe  33:32  

That one hit different, right? Not what you were expecting? Me, neither. If you learned something today, if a phrase or a story stuck with you, send it to someone, share it, start a conversation. That’s how change begins. I’m Selley, and I’ll leave you with this. Being an ambassador for kids doesn’t mean knowing everything. It just means refusing to accept a world where kids get less than they deserve. Speaking of Kids, is a podcast by First Focus on Children, produced by Windhaven productions and Bluejay Atlantic. Elizabeth Windom is the supervising producer. Julia Windom is the editor and Jay Woodward is the Senior Producer. For more about this episode, visit firstfocus.org.