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In this episode, Messellech “Selley” Abebe talks with Elisabeth Marnik, PhD about bridging the gap between science and everyday life, especially when it comes to kids’ health. Dr. Liz is a scientist, mom, and powerful science communicator who grew up in a fundamentalist, anti-science household and is now a trained immunologist translating research for everyday families. Together, Selley and Dr. Liz discuss why empathy works better than facts alone, how to navigate vaccine hesitancy with understanding, and ways parents can cut through misinformation to make informed choices. This conversation highlights the power of trust, curiosity, and compassion in keeping families healthy and connected.

To learn more about Dr. Liz Marnik and her work, you can check out her website, and follow her on Instagram, TikTok and Facebook. 

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Transcript

Dr. Liz Marnik  0:04  

Information alone is not enough, and that’s really hard, I think, for people to understand it’s facts don’t change minds. Ultimately, like information is important, facts are important, but what ultimately changes minds is relationships.

Selley Abebe  0:20  

Have you ever heard this one? Nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care. Hey, ambassadors, welcome back to Speaking of Kids. I’m Selley. Today’s episode is about science, fear, truth and the courage to speak up for kids and prepare yourself. It’s another vaccine conversation. One of the first big decisions as a new mom for me was choosing a pediatrician. I was just a few weeks away from meeting my daughter, and I needed to lock in a pediatrician, so I started asking family, friends, colleagues for their recommendations, and I started doing the rounds on one of our last visits, right before we walked in, my husband, at the time, made a comment that just landed wrong. And I was very pregnant, very emotional, and so the tears came. It was embarrassing and hilarious at the same time. But what happened next was I proceeded to go through the entire walkthrough with random tears streaming down my face, and had a whole conversation with the pediatrician. And what struck me in that moment was the fact that he didn’t treat me like I was crying. He didn’t make it awkward. I’m sure he probably had seen several pregnant women come in in an emotional wreck, and I was met with grace and with respect. He just kept talking to me like this was normal, like I still belonged in that room, and in that moment, I knew this was the doctor I could trust with my baby. You know, choosing a pediatrician isn’t just about credentials. It’s really about trust. It’s really about knowing that you can ask any sort of questions without shame, without judgment, and just be curious, especially when it comes to something as important as vaccines, because I had questions when the time came, and ultimately I was met with a lot of understanding, a lot of answering of my questions, and I ultimately decided to vaccinate all my children. You know, the biggest takeaway is facts matter, yes, but relationships matter more. The way someone listens, the way they treat you with patience and respect. That’s what really makes space for trust and for change. If Speaking of Kids helps you make sense of the world we’re raising children in today, then help us grow. Leave a rating, a review, or share the show with a friend. Your support means that we can keep having these conversations in ways that feel human and real. Today’s guest is Dr Liz marnik, a scientist, mom and fierce advocate for vaccine education and health literacy. She grew up in a fundamentalist home that completely rejected medical science. Now she’s a PhD trained immunologist, translating science with empathy and insight on Substack, social media and with the group Those Nerdy Girls. And as you’ll hear, she’s not just about fighting misinformation, she’s guiding people towards the truth. So you’ve said your mom didn’t vaccinate you because she wanted to protect you, and that you chose to vaccinate your kids for that exact same reason. I find it so fascinating in motherhood when things like this come up, and our intent is still kind of rooted in love. But how has that shaped the way you talk to other parents today, understanding that very nuanced but also very powerful stance in terms of this topic that’s very personal?

Dr. Liz Marnik  4:04  

I will say that when I was not a mother, I did not understand this. And it really was becoming a mother myself that really, I think, gave me a lot of grace in terms of, like, you have a baby, and then they put this baby in your arms, and you’re like, Oh, my goodness, I now have this human being that I am tasked with raising and keeping safe into adulthood. And it’s like this really overwhelming responsibility, particularly in our system that does not support mothers or parents very well. And I really, at that moment, started understanding how hard it can be to make decisions for your kids, and that’s really what opened my eyes to understanding a little bit more about what really impacted my mom and her decision making. So she is a very anxious individual, even now as somebody older. And she went to my first pediatrician’s appointment with questions, and the pediatrician wouldn’t answer her questions. This was in the 80s, like it was this older guy who said, you vaccinate your kids, because I told you to. At least that was her recollection of the events. That’s how she felt. And she left that practice, and we never went back to a pediatrician. I didn’t go back to a doctor until I was a teenager. 

Selley Abebe  5:25

Wow.

Dr. Liz Marnik  5:26

But she made that decision because she felt like it was what was needed to keep me safe. She was hearing all of these scary things. She had read scary things, and nobody could help her navigate that information. So in her mind, when there was doubt, the safest option was to avoid it. And that’s what she did. Because she ultimately loves my brother and I, and wanted us to get to healthy and happy adulthood, and she thought that meant not vaccinating me. And now, when I have my own kids, I have two, I have a six year old and a three year old. And I now know from my experience that vaccinating them is the way that I can keep them safe, and that is motivated by the same thing that motivated her, which was love and ultimately wanting healthy and happy kids. So it really helps me when I communicate now with people who are concerned or hesitant to really have that as the first and foremost connector that at the end of the day, there are always exceptions, but at the end of the day, most parents are trying to make the best decisions they can for their kids with the information that they have access to, and starting from that common ground is often where I find the best inroads for having these hard conversations.

Selley Abebe  6:43  

Which makes sense, because it’s a very human response, right? Especially of mothers. So it makes complete sense, you know. And to that point, you grew up homeschooled in a deeply religious, anti science environment, and now you’ve made science your life’s work. Make that make sense to everyone listening.

Dr. Liz Marnik  7:06  

You know, sometimes I sit where I am today and I’m just like, wow, first of all, one day, maybe I will write a book. And second of all, sometimes it feels like it happened to like a different person. It’s so far removed from my existence now, and at the end of the day, I really have teachers and professors to credit for this kind of transformation. So I had gone to public school for a little bit of time in elementary school, and then I was pulled out because my mother was worried that the school system was corrupting me because of our religious beliefs, they weren’t aligning with what we were learning. I grew up in a religion that was a literal seventh day creation, so anything that we learned about, like evolution, that was very against what my mom wanted me to learn. So she decided it would be easiest to pull me out. But she only ever, the furthest she ever got an education was eighth grade, so I got to a point where she no longer had the capacity to teach me. And I was one of those kids who just loved to learn. So I had a grandmother who I love so much, she unfortunately passed away before I had my own children. But she bought me my own homeschool curriculum, and I pretty much homeschooled myself for 9th and 10th grade, and then finally begged my mother to let me go back to public school in 11th grade. And she let me because I think she was like, this is, I can’t argue with her anymore about this. And I think she thought by then I was old enough to like, and deeply grounded enough in my faith that it was fine. And I went back to public school in 11th grade, and it was my first time ever having an actual science class. And it blew my mind. Blew my mind because I was learning about things that like we had never gotten to in the curriculum that I had. And I loved it. I loved every single piece of that chemistry class I had, and that teacher really was, like, saw something in me and was like, You’re so good at this, like, you can do this as a career. And I was in the mindset of, like, I didn’t know what I was gonna do when I got older. In my family, most people just got married and had kids, and that was all they did. And there was nothing wrong with that. But I just didn’t have any other frame of reference for what a life could be like. So it was really that teacher who helped me start thinking of career options, helped me apply to college, helped me navigate that process, helped me, like, figure out how to do financial aid, and then I went to college. And it was that experience in college where I entered deciding to do science, and then realized I had never learned about evolution, and I was like, in my freshman bio class, being like, wait, what like we have all these genetic similarities between all these other organisms. And it just blew my mind. And it was really again, those, I had professors who really sat down with me and I became friends with individuals in the classes. And that really helped me reframe a lot of what I was raised with, and really changed my mindset. So without those teachers and professors, I don’t know where I would be today.

Selley Abebe 10:12  

I love that. I mean, just because teachers are, I mean I value them so much. And they have the ability to completely transform someone’s life, you know, and just by exposure, right? And then, you know, making a little bit more time to invest so shout out to teachers. But for you, you also went from lab work now into more, broader science communication. How did that happen?

Dr. Liz Marnik  10:40  

Yeah, that’s a great question. So I again, had such little like exposure growing up that I loved lab work, and I still like lab work. I still sometimes get to dabble in lab work in, in different ways, in my, in my current job, but when I was in grad school, I was getting my PhD, and I was doing a lot of research, and I realized that the people in careers above me no longer were doing the fun parts of the job. They were sitting in their office writing grants all day, and I pretty quickly realized that was not the lifestyle that I wanted. I love teaching. I love explaining things. I love getting my hands dirty with the actual work. So I learned pretty quickly in my process of getting my PhD, that I didn’t want to just be what we call a pi, which is a principal investigator, it’s the person running the lab. I didn’t want that job. So I started off on this kind of journey to figure out what was it that I was going to do with this degree that I was earning, and that’s where I started doing more of the education focused work, and then the pandemic hits. And I was in a postdoc, I was doing more lab work, and I started seeing a lot of this disconnect, where my family of origin is still very much anti science, and we’re spreading a lot of these things about COVID. And I felt this responsibility because my research as a PhD student was all immunology focused, so I had this nice intersection of my skills really were meeting the need at the time. So I started talking about what was happening in a way that the public could understand, and my account kind of blew up. And from there, I was able to start more public science communication. And in the interim, I was also faculty at a university for four years where I taught biology and immunology and microbiology, and I loved it. But what I struggled with was that by the time I was getting those students, they were already science majors. They already knew they wanted to go to med school, or they wanted to go to dental school, or they wanted to be in science in some way, or they were doing some sort of program. I felt like I could ultimately have a bigger impact by interacting with people who might never enter a formal science classroom. And that’s why I ended up leaving my faculty position, by choice. I, and that was a hard decision, because I was trained to, that’s what you did, like you became a professor, that was your goal in becoming kind of like, that’s your career trajectory pinnacle, is like being a professor. But I ultimately left that position because I felt like I could have a bigger impact doing what I do now. So I do science communication. I design K through 12 programs. I design public programs because I really know from a personal experience that it’s those exposures that can really make a difference, not only in career choice for kids. Like I never would have ended up where I am today if it wasn’t for that teacher, that really informative experience in high school. And also the public deserves this kind of information too, because it makes a difference in what decisions they make, and that’s ultimately why I decided to leave bench research in that faculty position. 

Selley Abebe  13:56  

Wow. I love that. And right now it’s so fascinating, because you’re serving as that person that somebody can look up to and be like, Oh, wow, I like science, but I also like to communicate, you know, I like to talk to people. And I think sometimes, especially as kids, even now as an adult, I still find myself better understanding the layers and complexities around a single industry or issue, or, you know, it’s so multifaceted, right? Like, even when I talk to my kids or nieces and nephews or just children in general, around access, like, they may like video games, right? And it’s like, yes, you may like video games. And there’s so many different avenues that you can be in that space, whether it’s marketing, whether it’s communications, whether so, I love the fact that you’re doing something that’s number one so needed, right? Like someone that understands the complexity, especially when you’re talking about things like public health and vaccines, you know, but can also communicate it in a way that makes sense. And your superpower is your background, right? It’s like, I think you have the such, the unique ability to understand things through different lenses, where, especially in this issue, it gets. I mean, even me, I’m a mom of three, too. I have a three, six and nine year old, and we’re in a time now where it’s like parents will have questions. And so you know, when a parent has questions or fears about vaccines but feels judged by their doctor or, or for whatever the external reasons may be, or internal reasons may be, what’s the best path forward for both sides?

Dr. Liz Marnik  15:32  

Yeah, I think ultimately, this kind of gets into policy. Right is, I think that the problem is pretty big, and it’s multifaceted in terms of the things that need to happen, right? Like we’re in a system now, in the US, where our public health system is struggling in terms of, or I should say, our healthcare system is struggling. And that providers don’t have, necessarily, an hour to sit down with parents. And some of them would love to have that time, but they are in systems where you have 10 minute appointment blocks. And I think that this means that ultimately, a way forward is equipping, I think, providers to have these conversations better, but then also equipping trusted messengers in the community. So who else can parents go to when they have questions to get accurate and understandable and trusted information? And every person in a community, if a parent has questions, they likely already have people they go to for answers, whether or not those answers are the correct ones, right. They have people in the community that they trust. So a lot of what I think about in terms of what’s happening now is, how can we equip trusted messengers in community who already have relationships with people who can help give them accurate and understandable information, so that they’re making those decisions based on that accurate information. And I think the hard part is that sometimes you can present people with accurate information, and they still might make a decision you disagree with, and that’s hard, but that doesn’t necessarily mean you failed. And I think that’s another really hard part, is sometimes I have conversations with people, and I walk away from that conversation being like that didn’t go well, like they didn’t listen to a word I said, like, I felt like I was talking to a wall, whatever it was. But then sometimes a couple years later, they come back to me and they’re like, oh, like, I just got my kid vaccinated, or Oh, like, I did this. And they’re like, Oh, you helped me start thinking about something differently. But it took time to get there, and I think that’s another really important thing for people to remember is that when you’re having conversations, I think one is to lead with empathy. That’s a big thing that I try to stress in how I communicate, but also how I encourage others to communicate, is it’s easy to get annoyed and mad and frustrated, but calling people stupid or calling them names or telling them they’re dumb or whatever. It’s not going to work. Nobody likes being called stupid, and that’s ultimately not going to help the situation. So leading with empathy and curiosity so that you can have conversations is really how we ultimately get a way forward. And maybe you walk away thinking you didn’t make a difference, and we’ll find out in years, you did. And I think about it as planting seeds. And sometimes you might not see that fruit for years or decades or maybe ever, but you’re at least planting seeds in the hopes that eventually you will.

Selley Abebe  18:30  

Yeah. I mean, that’s all you can do. It’s also like the most you can ask for, you know, in terms of just, can you try to listen, or can you try to, you know, be open minded on both sides. Let’s pause right here. Here’s another quote I like “The day you plant the seed is not the day you eat the fruit”. We’ve just heard how empathy and patience can plant seeds for change, even if you don’t see the fruit right away. If that speaks to you, send this episode to someone that might hear it. After the break, Liz Marnik shares what she hears from fellow scientists and why facts alone aren’t enough to change minds. Welcome back, ambassadors. We’re here with Dr. Liz Marnik talking about science, parenting, and how we actually connect across divides. Liz, you’ve talked about leading with empathy and curiosity in these conversations, but what happens when you bring that approach into rooms with other people who think similarly to you? How do they respond?

Dr. Liz Marnik  19:37  

I think one thing that I have seen a lot of, and I think it’s hard, is that when I bring up these conversations amongst like, other scientists or other people who are vaccine advocates or whatever it is, the issue that we’re talking about, a lot of times I get the response of, well, the information is out there, and if they’re making the wrong decision, then they’re stupid. They’re very dismissive of that, and I have an issue with that for a variety of reasons. One is that, that’s a lot of privilege to be assuming. Because not everyone can one, has the same literacy that you do. And two, not everyone knows what information is good information versus what information is bad information. So information alone is not enough, and that’s really hard, I think, for people to understand is facts don’t change minds. Ultimately, like information is important, facts are important, but what ultimately changes minds is relationships. 

Selley Abebe  20:35

Yeah.

Dr. Liz Marnik  20:36

And that takes time and effort and energy, and again, is usually a long game, and that’s hard.

Selley Abebe  20:41  

I mean, it’s looking really long right now. 

Dr. Liz Marnik  20:45

I know.

Selley Abebe  20:46

It’s looking like, is that light? Is, I don’t know. But on that note, you’ve been, you’ve been vocal about this administration’s attempt, you know, to dismantle really, a lot of public health infrastructure. And again, like, that’s something that at First Focus, we always say, like kids issues really shouldn’t be partisan. You know, this is really what makes sense for America. But what do you want parents to understand about these shifts? We’re really trying in this season to break it down so this can really get to people that, even for me, right, like it’s hard to understand, like, the nuance of connecting, especially policy at a federal level, down to, oh, this is going to change my life, you know, and this will change potentially several millions of children’s lives across the country.

Dr. Liz Marnik  21:39  

It’s hard, because a lot of our scientific and public health system is so invisible to people that they don’t realize how often they’re actually taking advantage of the things that are supported by those systems because we don’t advertise it. Like, when you go get your kid vaccinated, we don’t say, Oh, this is brought to you by the Vaccine for Children’s Program that’s helping cover the cost of this, right? Maybe sometimes it’s mentioned, but usually not in a way that like resonates with people as to, as how that’s related to policy or federal decision making. So I think that’s hard, and that is ultimately one of the things I think we need to get better at doing as like scientists and public health officials and stuff. But from a parent perspective, I think it’s really important to remember that like, ultimately, like insurance coverage for things like childhood vaccines is dictated by what the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices recommends, and that’s a committee that most people probably don’t know exists, but it’s a committee that makes recommendations about what vaccines should be on the childhood schedule at what intervals. And whatever they recommend is what insurance companies are required to cover, so that when you go to the pediatrician’s office or to the provider’s office, if your kid gets vaccinated for that and you have health insurance, it’s covered. Now, the problem we’re facing right now is that the Secretary of Health and Human Services, Robert F Kennedy, has removed all of those members of the committee and has replaced them with people who are not qualified to sit on that committee. So now we have people making decisions that impact your ability to get vaccines for your kids and your ability to get those vaccines covered by insurance, potentially. So that’s just one way where, like, who’s the head of an agency can have really big impacts on what you can choose to do as a parent. Or as a provider, depending on what side of the coin that you’re on. So it’s hard because most of those things are invisible to people, but it’s a very tangible thing that I know I and other people are worried about. Is we don’t know what’s going to happen in the next few months in terms of what they may change about recommendations for childhood vaccines, and that could make it harder for parents to make decisions about the health of their kids, which ultimately is something that they say they don’t want. They say they want parents to be able to make decisions for themselves and their families, but they’re making it harder for us to do that in some ways.

Selley Abebe  24:13  

Right. You know, I would suspect in a situation potentially where there’s a lot more families that have concerns around vaccines, right? And that’s not what we want for public health period.

Dr. Liz Marnik  24:27  

Yeah, and I think it’s hard, because we’re in an interesting time. So if you look at data, like polling data. There was a poll released last week that shows that even amongst Republicans and amongst Democrats, regardless of what side of the aisle you fall on. Most people still want vaccine access like that’s a pretty big bipartisan issue, but that’s not what people think if they scroll on social media, because the algorithm, really right now is favoring like, all of these people spreading lies about vaccines, and making it seem like less people want to vaccinate their kids. And the problem with that is it then makes parents question whether or not they’re making the right decision. So maybe a mom hasn’t thought about vaccines before, but then all of a sudden, she sees these things, scrolling after scrolling after scrolling on social media, it then makes them like, Okay, if all these other people are saying this, and, did I miss something? So it creates kind of this false problem, and then it becomes a real problem. And I think that’s kind of where we are, is like, vaccines are still bipartisan. There’s still strong support for vaccines. But if you look at what RFK says as head of HHS, or if you look at social media, you get a very skewed perspective. And that’s really dangerous for in terms of what’s going to happen to public health moving forward.

Selley Abebe  25:51  

You’ve written that you can’t green smoothie your way out of lead exposure. And you can’t eliminate food dyes and not address food access. And again, you know, at First Focus we work on the cross of issues because we believe it’s really hard to work on education without thinking of nutrition or immigration or, you know, early childhood. At times, policies like SNAP soda bans seem more about controlling low income families than promoting public health. Especially when things like rotisserie chickens or some soups, which actually make family life healthier and easier, are excluded from benefits. It’s again, like it’s a little confusing to say, you know. well this make sense, why is this covered, but then I can’t have this? From a science perspective, what does the evidence say about the impact of these restrictive policies, and what would real research back solutions for kids health look like instead?

Dr. Liz Marnik  26:56  

Yeah. So this is really, really hard, because I think, like, and I get this feedback from a lot of people, and a lot of times they say, well, why don’t you want to make America healthier? Like people who are coming to me are like, well, why are you against what this administration is doing? Don’t you want America to be healthier? And I think, of course, like at the end of the day, I think all of us public health scientists, all of us agree that we want our children and adults to be healthier. Where we disagree with a lot of what this administration is doing is how they are going about doing that. So for example, they talk about like chronic diseases in childhood, and they talk about things like obesity, and they talk about things like asthma, and they talk about just making people eat more vegetables, essentially. But they don’t actually talk about systemic policy changes that are needed to make that happen. And I wrote a newsletter about this yesterday, is not only was my family anti science, but we also were very poor. And we had very little money, so we couldn’t buy vegetables, we couldn’t buy fresh fruit most days, we often couldn’t buy meat. There were days where I know my mom went to bed hungry because she wanted us to eat food. and I was, I did have a lot of health issues, but they weren’t just because of that, there was a lot of other things going on. And it wouldn’t like, changing the ingredients in those foods wouldn’t have helped. Banning Ultra processed foods wouldn’t have helped. Taking out red dye wouldn’t have helped. Taking out seed oils wouldn’t have helped. What I needed, and what my family needed, was being able to actually afford fresh fruits and vegetables or whatever it is that we were trying to do, right? And those solutions, the real solutions we need to make America more healthy are those systemic policy changes that are not as easy, right? It’s a lot easier to say, hey, we’re just going to remove food dye and ultra processed food, and it’s going to fix everything, that’s easier to do. It’s a lot harder to say that we need to restructure our systems to actually support the people who need the help. So making sure that families can access food, making sure that people who live in food deserts have ways of getting food. My mom didn’t drive. So for a long time, we would have to walk to the closest location, which was more expensive. So it’s those changes that are what we really need to have happen. Or for example, regulating our air pollution and regulating our water quality in terms of thinking about arsenic and lead. Those are systemic changes that have to be implemented if we want to see improvements in health. Going ingredient by ingredient is not what’s going to actually make the difference, but it’s what is easier for people to target. And that, I think, is where there’s this big disconnect. Is at the end of the day, sure we all want to be more healthy, but I know my focus is on those systemic societal policy changes that have to happen to actually make that be the case. And instead, this administration is targeting ingredients and then kicking essentially making SNAP restrictions even harder and potentially making food insecurity worse, which is not going to improve the health and the health outcomes that they say they actually want to improve.

Selley Abebe  30:30  

You mentioned distractions. And you know what we’ve noticed is movements like MAHA where the whole agenda is to Make America Healthy Again, and policymakers really cling to these distractions or to false narratives that aren’t really helping the ultimate goal of making us healthy again. What’s the danger of ignoring the systemic failures that you kind of just pointed out for so many families, that if we’re now in a point where these systems may be disrupted even more, what are these outcomes going to look like for us?

Dr. Liz Marnik  31:07  

So I am really worried that we’re going to get into a situation where it’s going to worsen the gap between, like the elite in terms of like the upper income brackets in this country, and those in the lower income brackets of this country. I think it’s going it’s going to get worse, right? Because the people who have the means and the privilege and the resources are going to be able to go pay out of pocket for their vaccines if they have to. Or they’re going to go be able to buy the food that they need to. And that’s not the same for the people who don’t have those resources, like we couldn’t growing up, we never could have paid for a vaccine out of pocket, even if my mom was going to vaccinate me like that wouldn’t have been an option for us. So it’s just, I am very concerned that it’s just going to worsen the gap between those who already are more at risk for some of these health outcomes that they talk about and then so instead of addressing the actual root problem, which they say they want to do, they’re big into the root cause of things. They’re kind of giving us this false root cause when they’re ignoring, and ultimately they’re going to make this gap worse. And that’s why I really hope we can start course correcting. And I think having more conversations like this and in other places as well, is that we can’t, we have to think of this more holistically at a whole country level, and not just focus on essentially the most privileged. Which I feel like the policies that they’re talking about, they’re not going to harm the most privileged, they’re going to harm the people who already have disadvantages.

Selley Abebe  32:39  

For parents that have listened to this now and may have a different perspective. You may have helped them shift their perspective, or start to ask questions, want to learn more, want to advocate for better research, better policies that protect their kids and the community right, like broader public health, what are some real steps they can take?

Dr. Liz Marnik  32:57  

So I think a couple things is one, call your representatives. And I know everyone says this, and I’ve been spending a lot of time on the Hill in recent months, and I am seeing shifts that it does make a difference calling your representative, even if you think they agree with you, even if you know they don’t, it doesn’t matter. Call them anyway, because what a constituent cares about, if enough constituents care about the issue, enough people who could potentially vote for them care about an issue, then they will sometimes act on that issue. So I think one is calling your representatives and telling them why you care about these issues is a big one. But then also, I think having these conversations is important in communities. A lot of times we live in silos. We live in echo chambers, online worsens those echo chambers. So I really think that it’s important for us to start having conversations with people in our community. So if you have an experience that’s relevant to what’s happening right now, maybe it’s harder for you to access healthcare, or it’s harder for you to get a vaccine, or you’ve benefited from a medical scientific breakthrough, having those conversations with people in your community, can help make these things more visible to people. Because I talked before about how a lot of what happens is invisible, one way we can change that is to talk more about it. And I think that’s something that all of us can do. And then ultimately, when you go to vote, consider the policy things you care about in the decisions you make in that voting booth.

Selley Abebe  34:26  

Yeah, I love that. You know, with so much misinformation out there, what gives you hope right now?

Dr. Liz Marnik  34:33  

So it gives me hope to see how many people are reacting to our current moments. So I see a lot of scientists, I see a lot of public health people. I see a lot of parents who maybe have not been involved in policy or science or public health before, who are now coming to me being like, what can I do? I have scientist who are coming to be me, being like, How can I communicate to the public better? And I have parents who are like, I want to go do science with my kids classrooms, Can you help me figure out an activity to do? And I think that’s giving me real hope, because at the end of the day, I think what’s going to get us out of this situation is community. So I think we have to start leaving our internet, and I think there’s benefits to our internet, there’s also a lot of harms. But I think we need to leave the internet and leave this online space and actually get out on the ground in community, because I think that’s ultimately going to help us reach the people who need to be reached the most, and help us get out of those echo chambers, which is what I think we need to do. 

Selley Abebe  35:41  

Yeah. And on that note, you know, we ask all of our guests this question. It’s funny, because I do think that music does get people outside and off the internet. We have a lot of dance parties in our house. Is, what’s the song, what’s the one song that lifts you up when you know you just feel like you got to keep going?

Dr. Liz Marnik  36:01  

Yeah, I’ve been playing Rise Up by Andra Day, a lot on repeat recently.

Selley Abebe  36:08  

That’s a good one. Thank you so much, Liz, for being here. You were so helpful at even helping me understand this issue in a different way. So thank you. 

Dr. Liz Marnik  36:17  

You are welcome, and thank you guys for all the work you’re doing.

Selley Abebe  36:21  

What I’m taking from this conversation is that facts alone don’t change minds, relationships do. That’s something every one of us can use, whether it’s talking to a neighbor about vaccines, helping a friend navigate parenting decisions, or even just pausing to listen before we respond. So here’s my challenge to you this week, lead with curiosity. Ask one more question before offering your opinion that simple shift can open the door to understanding in ways information never could. And if this episode sparked something for you, please share it. Send it to a friend who’s struggling with hard conversations, or to a parent, you know, who feels overwhelmed sometimes the right story at the right time is the seed that grows. Speaking of Kids, is a podcast by First Focus on Children. It’s produced by Windhaven Productions and Bluejay Atlantic. Elizabeth Windom is the supervising producer. Julia Windom is the editor and Jay Woodward is the Senior Producer. For more information about this episode, visit firstfocus.org.