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In this episode, Messellech “Selley” Abebe sits down with economist Kathryn Edwards to unpack the economic challenges facing children and families, particularly in child care and education. Edwards is a labor economist and independent policy consultant whose research focuses on the intersection of labor markets and public policy. She joins us to break down complex economic ideas, connecting the dots between big-picture policy and everyday life. This conversation offers both practical knowledge and a sense of hope for those working to build a better economic future for children and families.

To learn more about Kathryn Edwards’ work, visit kathrynanneedwards.com. You can follow her on Instagram, TikTok, and Twitter. Lastly, be sure to check out her podcast Optimist Economy.

Want to keep digging into the real-life impact policy decisions have on children? Here’s some of what First Focus on Children has published recently:

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Send us comments on thoughts via email: SpeakingOfKids@firstfocus.org

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Transcript

Selley Abebe  0:03  

Do you have any money? 

Child 1  0:05

I have $400.

Child 2  0:07  

Yes, like $250 plus, like over, like $2,000 in college account, stuff.

Selley Abebe  0:15  

What do you do with your money? How do you save it?

Child 1  0:19  

In a money saving jar. And it’s like a mini game. 

Child 2  0:25

I keep my cash in, like a money box in my room, but I lost the key, so I don’t know where that went. And then I keep, like my big money that I get from, like, acting jobs and stuff. I keep that, I guess, in a bank, in a college account.

Selley Abebe 0:40  

Is there anything that you’re saving for? 

Child 1  0:43  

Yes, I’m saving for the biggest slime ever.

Child 2  0:47

Like going places with my friends.

Selley Abebe  0:49  

Do you think allowance that you get, or money that you’re getting, do you think that should be tax?

Child 1  0:55  

What even is tax? 

Child 2  0:57

No, I think I should get interest on it.

Selley Abebe  0:59  

Do you think it’s something that the government, or mommy, or daddy, or grandma, should keep like, we should keep a percentage? 

Child 1  1:10  

Like, a tax?

Selley Abebe  1:12  

Mhm. Like a tax, like a parent tax.

Child 1  1:15  

Yes.

Selley Abebe  1:17  

What if we took 10%?

Child 1  1:21  

You should upgrade it to 20%.

Selley Abebe  1:26  

Hey ambassadors, I’m Messellech Abebe. Some people call me Selley. If you’ve ever been to the grocery store, if you’ve ever paid for childcare, if you’ve ever managed a family budget, congratulations, because you’ve actually been participating in the economy. As consumers, our spending actually makes up about two thirds of the entire US economy, which blows my mind. So in other words, our everyday family spending patterns make up the backbone of all economic activity. And our household budgets reflect overall economic health. So when we make choices about what we can afford, what we can’t afford, we’re actually responding to broader economic forces. Like inflation. Like tariffs. Like government policies. So personal budgeting is actually a micro reflection of macro economic conditions. What I’m trying to say is, the economy and our spending habits are not just some distant, abstract system. It’s all woven into our daily lives. And if you’ve ever felt like, no matter how hard you’ve tried to work, the system still seems stacked against you. I know in my case, when I’m thinking of child care, when I’m thinking of summer vacations, when I’m thinking of signing up for summer camps, these are all real things that in some situations, it feels like the money is not adding up. Or in other seasons, it may feel like it’s overflowing. But if you have those feelings, you’re definitely not alone and you’re exactly in the right place. My guest this week is economist Kathyrn Edwards. She’s here to break it all down for us. Without the jargon. Without the big words. And really connect the dots between policy, parenting, everyday life, and show us why change is actually possible. She’s also a great follow on Tiktok and Instagram, and so she’s one that I welcome into my algorithm. As always, we’ll start with a personal story, because when we talk about policy, we’re really talking about people. So ambassadors, I’m taking you back in time to my junior year of college. I had the opportunity to study abroad in Switzerland, and I signed up to take an economics class, and I walk in and I’m greeted by this adorable, petite Italian man, Professor Andrea Terzi. And little did I know that I was about to embark on a journey that made the economy and economics, more broadly, come to life. He really had a way of transforming these big concepts and theories into ways that were relatable to our everyday life. That all inspired me to really lean in and learn more. That class stayed with me because it made one thing crystal clear. The economy isn’t an abstract machine. It’s a reflection of real people, real lives, our lives. And I’m happy to report, I got a B+ in the class, which didn’t entirely drop my overall GPA. And that’s exactly the spirit we’re bringing to today’s conversation, because when we can see how these systems touch us, we can start to imagine how to make them better. Kathryn, thank you so much for being here. 

Kathryn Edwards  4:52

Thank you so much for having me. 

Selley Abebe  4:54

So we’re just gonna jump right in. You know, when we hear people talk about the economy, it often feels like a big abstract force that shapes our lives, but is really, you know, hard to wrap our head around. I know, honestly for me, you know, I get it, it’s overwhelming, even though I may have interest. And so, you know, when we think about how something as intangible as the economy really impacts something as real and personal as our children’s lives and our lives. You know, how can we break it all down in a way that actually makes sense? How do we connect the dots between these big economic concepts and everyday decisions we make for our families and children?

Kathryn Edwards  5:32  

That’s a great question, and I think it’s worth saying two things. One is that, you have to do right by your family. That’s the North Star, and that involves a lot of decision making, some of which will be economic in nature, and some of it won’t, but that’s, that’s always what you should be doing, is doing right by your family. Our economy is sometimes described as being like the weather. Where it just seems like it’s something that’s happening to you, but out of your control. And that’s not accurate. There are lots of ways in which the economy and the sum total of all those economic decisions and priorities that families are making, is stronger or weaker, based on both how the economy is doing and the policy built to support it. So what I would tell people is, sometimes when you’re making a decision for your family and it feels like you’re running against a brick wall, that is often a policy failure that you don’t have the words to describe or the expertise to identify, but it’s the result of a choice we make about our economy, not a function of living in one.

Selley Abebe  6:37  

And just to follow up on that, can you give our listeners like an example? Like, what came to my mind was like purchasing a home and having enough money for a down payment.

Kathryn Edwards  6:45  

That’s a good one. The one that I bring up a lot with parents is child care. 

Selley Abebe  6:50

Amen. 

Kathryn Edwards  6:50

The private provision of child care is a market failure. We currently buy care, right? Someone sells it. We buy it. They don’t make enough of it. It’s not high quality enough, and it’s too expensive. So the private provision of child care is a market failure because it doesn’t meet the demand that the economy requires at the price the economy requires. So this is an area in which you know, if there’s a clear market failure that tends to set the boundaries for government intervention. I’m a person in the world, and it doesn’t matter how hard I try, I can’t fix the broken child care market. I might be able to out earn it, but I’ll never fix it. I’ll never change it. It’s beyond the scope of my individual behavior. And yet, it’s, you know, it’s hurting a lot of families. That slides it from, this is something that happens in a market, in the economy, and it just kind of moves it on over to this is something the government should address. They’ve failed to address it. That’s a policy choice. So it feels like your money doesn’t go far enough. It feels like you’re putting some undue burden on your family just because you want to work. When in actuality, your policy makers have failed to address a market that has been in failure for 30 years that has absolutely no hope of ever turning itself around.

Selley Abebe  8:04  

Thank you so much, because with someone that has three children, that’s a very tangible example. You know, Kathryn. What I love about you, and I’m gonna get to a quote that you cite often, is you make this whole subject just very approachable, which, you know, I really appreciate. But you say, many people in economics communicate in a way to show how smart they are, but I like to communicate to show how smart you are. You in this conversation, I think would mean me, and so, you know, we know that economics is big, it’s nuanced, and there’s never one single right answer, but it’s not hard. What are we not understanding about economics and what could make this easier?

Kathryn Edwards  8:43  

I think what people get most wrong about the economy, is that hardship is a necessity. That inequality is a necessity. That there’s no other option, except for the state of the world we have. As opposed to, like the economy is a ball of clay. It can be shaped to our will. If you don’t like the way that it’s shaped, it’s because someone else has it in their hands. There’s no rule that says the only way a $20 trillion economy can function, is if the minimum wage is $7.25 an hour. There’s no rule that says that. So what I try to, you know, kind of impress upon people when talking about the economy is that, we often get told things as if they’re facts, when in fact they’re choices. Like well, minimum wage causes job loss. That’s, you know, very hard to prove. And frankly, not that’s like, there’s so much economic discourse is just about kind of like, gaslighting people with the objections they have. Like, well, you just don’t know that the economy has to work that way. Telling people that their own lived experiences are not in line with like, what the economy says is right, or what economists say is necessary. So I, yeah. I don’t know if that necessarily answered your question. I think it’s it’s just that the economy can be working better for people, but there’s this disconnect between, I know what’s wrong in my life, but I can’t diagnose what’s wrong in a $20 trillion economy. And I just want to try and bridge that gap, to say the things that you know from your life, they point to problems that economists can see in the overall US economy. And the bridge is there. You might not be able to talk about it, but that’s just, that’s not because you’re not smart enough. It’s because people are withholding information from you. You can get this. Like, believe it or not, you having a hard time buying childcare is equivalent to a nationwide problem, where lots of families are having a hard time buying childcare. It makes it very hard for people to have either high quality care or maintain care, and not drop out of the labor market, and both of those have massive deleterious consequences on our economy. That kids are unprepared for kindergarten on one hand, or women drop out of the labor market, and we lose workers in the economy on the other. Like, you know, childcare is hard. I’m the economist telling you that that hard, penalizes our economy, and I’m trying to bridge these two things together.

Selley Abebe  11:03  

And so to follow up on that. You know, at first focus we, early childhood is a big part of our work. And so we advocate for at one point, you know, when it was part of the conversation, universal pre K. And as someone that used to live in Washington, DC now lives in Maryland, DC has universal pre K, and so I was able to benefit from that program, you know, a policy decision, right? That then impacted my pocketbook significantly. And so, just for our listeners, are those the types of policy choices that you’re talking about?

Kathryn Edwards  11:33  

Oh, and they’re myriad. When childcare is an example, because of the it’s a high price tag. But we also, in the US, have chosen not to have paid family leave, paid medical leave. We don’t even have the requirement for paid sick days. In a lot of countries that are our peers, who have just as good an economy as we do, they have the right to work part time and request flexible arrangements, especially while their kids are young. They’re more inclusive of getting people with a disability or long term illness to get into their economy, because they can get flexible work arrangements. All of these are choices. And you can feel it in your own life, but the economy feels it too. And I think what I try to stress on one level is, we could have a better economy if you were doing better. There’s always this false trade off of, like, well, I know it’s really hard for you to get childcare, but like, the economy is strong and like, this is just a price we have to pay for living in a strong, successful economy. And that is unequivocally not true. At the end of the day, the economy itself is just a number. It’s a big number that describes how much output we have. It doesn’t tell you how many people are poor. It doesn’t tell you how easy it is to have or raise a kid. It doesn’t tell you how much economic security there is or how confident people feel in their own economic lives. But just because it doesn’t tell you that, doesn’t mean it’s unaffected by those things. And that economic insecurity or people having a hard time raising their kids, that doesn’t mean that doesn’t show up in that number. It just doesn’t show up in the way that maybe you would think. It shows up by having lower incomes, lower earnings, lower potential for your labor force participation and lifetime earnings. It shows up in numbers even if you feel it.

Selley Abebe  13:18  

I want listeners to hear this, but it’s already coming through. My next question to you is, you know, why did you decide to go beyond your research onto platforms like Tiktok to begin talking about, you know, the economy?

Kathryn Edwards  13:30  

Five years ago, I was invisible. You know, no one could have found me, even if they had my name to look up. I was very much like a head down, working as an economist for a think tank that does a lot of policy problem solving. But I have an area of expertise within economics, which is unemployment and recessions. So when the pandemic recession started, you know, I was in a position to be not only an expert about something, but I just didn’t look like the other experts there were. I mean, unemployment insurance is a very important public program that does not have a huge expert or advocacy base. And a lot of the people who are experts and advocates are, they’re older, they’re men, they might not have PhDs. And so, you know, I ended up having this like debutante ball to the media world because I was a female, with a PhD, under 40, who could speak with incredible clarity about what was going on in unemployment, in the recession. And it’s just, you can’t put that back in the box. You know, media hits turned into blog posts. Blog posts turned into columns. Columns turned into an offered column position and podcast requests. And it just, it kept going. And sometimes your career is something that you sit down and design. And sometimes, you know, it takes a turn, and you can either chase the butterfly down the hallway or close the door and say, that’s not for me. And so I just, I’ve been chasing it.

Selley Abebe  14:59  

And continue to chase, because you’re very talented at what you do. 

Kathryn Edwards  15:04

Thank you. 

Selley Abebe  15:04

You’re welcome. What has been the most surprising aspect of doing this work on social? Like, I’m sure you’ve come across nuggets or pockets that just totally surprised you.

Kathryn Edwards  15:13  

Yeah well, I wear, it’s a lot of, social media is exhausting, I will say. Because you, you know you have to put vertical content on all the vertical content platforms. It’s a lot of working in like, triplicates of like, I made this video for Tiktok, and now I need to post it for Instagram, and now I need to post it to YouTube. I put out this tweet, but now I need to make sure it’s on blue sky and threads. And so it’s a lot of like, you know, basically like, replicating yourself so you’re accessible to every audience. And then on top of this, I still have, like, a very staid, classic newspaper column in which I write about the economy. I think what has surprised me, I’ve been delighted by the comments section. I normally just get really nice comments. They’re hilarious a lot of the time. Sometimes I joke with my, you know, especially on Tiktok, I’ll be like, “Man, you guys are to the left of Lenin, my little communist out there”. You know, it’s just I they, you know, people really show themselves in this. And I think I was not expecting a conversation, and I definitely got a conversation. And there’s trolls, there’s awful people. I have a PhD in economics, and I’m a woman speaking, the most common comment I’ll get is I’m stupid and I don’t know what I’m talking about. It’s just the casual undercutting of my ability to speak with authority is just a permanent part of being an intelligent woman interacting in a public space. But the connections I’ve made, and the conversations I have, not just some trolley comment that some guy makes. Also, my followers don’t really like when that happens, and so they will rise to my defense. But I’ve been so surprised by the conversations I’ve had, and it has opened my eyes, in many ways, to just how much people want to understand why it’s so hard. I also get the sense that people are really tired of talking points and just the hollowness there are to these nice phrases that don’t tell you anything, but they’re like designed to make sure that they poll well, the children are our future, and that’s what you’ll hear from every politician of like, we just want what’s best for families, but really, what families want is for someone to explain to them how the market failure of child care will be addressed in time for them to have a third kid. And so I think I’m filling a gap that has been left by a lot of leadership in our country to talk beneath people or around people, as opposed to talking to people about problems and assuming that they can’t understand it.

Selley Abebe  17:39  

Right, can’t understand it and can’t fix it. Let’s hold it right there for a second. Okay, ambassadors, we’re gonna take a little break, and when we come back, Kathryn takes off her economics hat and puts on her mom hat. And things get personal. We talk about what it really means to raise a kid in this economy, what the American Dream asks of our five year olds. Yes, five year olds. And why maybe, just maybe, we haven’t failed yet. Because we haven’t really tried. Stay with us. 

Selley Abebe  18:13

Kathryn, I’ve been thinking, you know. At what point in your career, did you realize that kids were really, I mean, kids, women, families were really at the intersection of labor and equity, and just the economy at large?

Kathryn Edwards  18:26  

I won’t lie, having my own children, you know, made this much more palpable than it was before. I came up as a researcher studying poverty. And I, when I was in graduate school, I had a poverty research fellowship and studying and understanding poverty in the United States is inextricably linked to children. They are the poorest group of Americans, and kids under five are poorer than kids six to 18. And the kind of truisms that emerge about poverty in the United States are, they’re so linked to childhood. But I, there was a perspective shift when I became a parent. Like I am a force of nature in trying to make sure my kids are doing okay in the world. It is only through that first person experience that I’m like, man. So how does someone do this when they’re not rich? You know, how does someone do this when they don’t have a partner that also has a high paying job. You know, how does someone do this if they don’t speak to their family because they’re gay and their family has completely cut them off? Like, how do you do this if you are not amongst the fortunate few? And I can know that in the data, and know that from studying poverty, but knowing it the way a mom knows it is just different.

Selley Abebe 19:40  

Yeah. When I started at First Focus on Children, I wasn’t a mom. And so I’m in your camp, right? Like, my background is something that you know, I can work in a lot of different industries to a degree. And I was like, okay, this will be nice for a few years. But then when I became a mom, your whole world changes.

Kathryn Edwards  19:56  

Yeah, I think that perspective changes, and the statistics hit different. So I think the greatest measure of failure in the US economy and US public policy, is the gap in school readiness for five year olds entering kindergarten. I mean, they’re five. I understand that we want people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. That is a lot to put on a five year old. And the gaps are there. I mean, they’re there in, you know, school readiness, they’re there in reading. They’re there in, like, literacy, numeracy. They’re there in childhood obesity. They’re there in childhood nutrition. I mean, the gaping inequality between rich and poor in the United States is imprinted on children by the time they show up to public school at age five. That is something I knew before I had kids, and then I learned again after I had kids. And I knew it, and then I learned it. And it was so harrowing to think how many people know it but haven’t learned it.

Selley Abebe  21:00

Or felt it.

Kathryn Edwards  21:01

Or felt it.

Selley Abebe  21:01

Because ultimately, at the end of the day. And this focus is on the economy and not other things right now, but as a mom, you’re focused on giving your child the best outcome. But I think once you quickly realize that what’s the best outcome for your child, is also what’s in the best interest of the country and ultimately, the world. And then there are solutions. You just kind of wonder, well, what’s the problem?

Kathryn Edwards  21:28  

What’s the problem? I mean, one thing I’ve talked about before is the American dream, and this kind of perennial naval gaze that we have in this country of wondering if the dream is dead. And the conclusion that I’ve come to, is that we don’t have the American dream because we don’t want it. And if we wanted the American dream, we would be alarmed by the fact that inequality has cemented the difference between rich and poor by age five. And if we seem untroubled by that, it’s because we actually don’t want the American dream. I mean, it doesn’t start at age 18. Especially if you’ve already been cemented by age five. I mean, I don’t seem cemented like people are faded or they can never overcome certain circumstances, but they shouldn’t have to overcome so much at age five, right? It’s not to say that there’s not a five year old who’s bright, who wasn’t ready in kindergarten, but is able to, you know, catch up and do really well. It’s just that certain five year olds are forced to catch up because of the failures in our economy and public policy. Imagine the world we would have if they didn’t have to catch up, if they just got to sprint ahead. That would be the American dream. So I tell people, it’s not dead. You don’t want it. And until you are scandalized by someone else’s kid having less money or preparation than yours, you don’t want the American Dream either. This is the only part I think of my like public facing rhetoric in which I think I actually do get kind of nasty. Because I think people like to believe the best in themselves always, and I’d like to believe the best in people always as well, but the callous treatment of children whose parents you don’t like reveal something nasty about ourselves. And I think people don’t want to believe that about their own self.

Selley Abebe  23:09  

I think that’s accurate. 

Kathryn Edwards  23:10  

That’s the harsh version. I think that a lot of people that’s a lot to put on their shoulders too. Like, I’m able to see both sides. Like, hey, if you’re not fighting for like, the poor neighbor next door’s kid, like, who are you? But at the same time, it shouldn’t be your problem. It should be policy makers are fixing this so it doesn’t become an individual burden. And I think again, this goes back to the rhetoric I try to push through in the communication around the economy. Is that, you know, an economy as unequal as the one that we have with as many failures as the one that we have. It makes villains out of us all. What we should be focusing our attention to is where policy has failed those kids. I think, where I see kind of this wedge is the people who don’t support that policy. Of it’s one thing for there to be public policy failures related to the underinvestment in children and the inequality that children experience. But it’s another thing to have someone stare me down in a Tiktok video and say, it’s not my job to pay for somebody else’s kids.

Selley Abebe  24:08  

Which is equally accurate, right? Like so you’re balancing that, but at the end of the day, it comes back to exactly what you said is, these are policy level decisions, and it shouldn’t get to the point where, you know, we’re pitted against each other. Because I also think a piece of this is people always not understanding the broader context and where they sit. So it’s, it’s easier for them to throw that out in a nuanced way without fully understanding, okay, what does that mean? You know, okay, like, you’re allowed to feel that way, but like, well, what does that then mean? Right?

Kathryn Edwards  24:43  

I mean, it’s all a two way street where policy fails and where people’s individual views are. And policy might not reflect the things that we want, but it doesn’t necessarily not reflect the things that we think. I guess is another way to think about it, like it. There’s, there’s lots of problems with our the way our public policy is structured, but at the same time, like there are clear veins of it, reflecting a mindset that maybe isn’t shared, but it certainly exists. So I think one explanation for how I think about this is that I study unemployment, and that’s actually what I wrote my dissertation on, was on unemployment, and I have always felt so in some ways, whip sawed by just how cruel someone will casually be to an unemployed person. I mean, six weeks ago, this was someone who had a job, who worked hard, who was doing what they were supposed to do in the economy. They get laid off and they’re lazy. They don’t want to work, you know, they’re just takers. They’re living off the dole. They won’t take jobs unless it has like, you know, a better benefit, the just the casual fall from grace that is so steep but so quick. Of you used to be a good, hard American worker, and now you’re unemployed and you’re nothing. I’ve sat in that designation for a while. I’ve let that rhetoric sit in my head for a while to try to understand where it comes from. And the conclusion I came to, especially in the pandemic, is that it’s a self preservation. You know, if a hard working person who didn’t do anything wrong can end up unemployed, that means I could be unemployed. And so the more that I kind of denigrate unemployed people, the more I make them different from myself, and it’s just a self preservation of like, hard working people who had good jobs don’t become unemployed. Otherwise I could be like that. So it’s easier to think like, well, they didn’t work that hard, or they took the wrong job, or they made some mistake on the way that explains why they’re unemployed, and I didn’t make that mistake, which explains why I’m not. And the randomness of unemployment is really hard for people to grab, grip their heads around. So I that type of like, I don’t want to be kind to the unemployed, because it would reveal that I, myself, am vulnerable to unemployment. I think I see some of that with how we think about child policy, and how we think about investments in children and investments in families that it’s part of, it is just the self preservation mindset projected onto a group of people that need help that you don’t want to help.

Selley Abebe  27:09  

I love the way that you broke it down, because it really makes sense, and it’s exactly how I feel, and I think that you just articulated it in a way that’s even more relatable. And so, to keep the conversation going, what in all of this gives you hope?

Kathryn Edwards  27:24  

Hope? Oh, my God, y’all. The hope comes from trying nothing so far, right? If we were at the end of like a 30 year policy sprint where we threw everything in the kitchen sink, at child poverty, at inequality, at economic mobility, at the cost of having kids or health insurance or anything, I would be like, Man, I don’t know what’s left. Like, this is really tough. We have, in fact, tried almost nothing. We’ve tried so little it rounds down to nothing. We’re basically at a blank slate. Now, that slate is deteriorating because we keep on not trying. But I mean, the hope comes from knowing there are so many solutions that we could enact that would make a difference, and we know that they’d make a difference because certain cities have done it, certain localities have done it, certain states, other countries. And it’s not to say that every result of every policy ever studied will just pick up and perfectly map itself onto the United States, but what we’ve learned is that there are some relationships that policy has with the outcomes they’re targeting. And if we can move the needle even a little bit, we’ve made an incredible difference in people’s lives and in the economy. So great policy we don’t have, universal paid sick days. Great policy we don’t have, free childcare. Great policy we don’t have, paid family leave and paid medical leave. Great policy we don’t have, universal school lunch and breakfast free for everyone. Great policy we don’t have, universal aftercare free for everyone available till six. Great policy we don’t have, universal and free summer camp. All of these things have policy options. There’s ideas that we could put into practice. There are things that we could try. This is what gives me hope. I mean, I’m walking into this meeting with a binder six inches thick called good ideas with data behind them, and I’m just like, I’m ready to do my like, good girl thing and be like, okay, in chapter one, section two on school lunch, we have found it is one of the most cost effective ways to buy higher test scores amongst low income children, middle income children and even higher income children. We have the cheapest way to increase America’s Test Scores amongst children right in front of us. And wouldn’t you know, it doesn’t cost that much. Okay, fighting obesity is just a side effect. Let’s turn to chapter two. Like I am ready. I’ve got my like book. I’m ready, and I think America should be ready too, because we’re so tired of what we have now. So yeah, the current administration doesn’t inspire much in terms of constructive policy solutions that are grounded in evidence, as opposed to pettiness or power and retribution. But that just means those problems are going to be waiting for us, and those solutions are going to be just as necessary as they were today, as they were a month ago, as they were 10 years ago. 

Selley Abebe  30:04

Absolutely.

Kathryn Edwards  30:05  

I’m a bit of a Leslie no free Parson Max, like, got my binders of policies. I’m like, ready to go into the media and flip through them. I’m, I have a shades of Leslie my personality. 

Selley Abebe  30:17  

I mean, again, I’ve been with the organization now to almost 12 years, and that’s really what keeps me going, because I’m like, Guys, we have the stuff. Like, we have a whole agenda. We have a whole publication called big ideas that are not really that big, but it’s like, if you want to frame them that way, I mean they will have a big impact. And so to your point, yeah, like, the solutions are there. The solutions are there. We just need to open our eyes. And to your point that you made earlier, people need to just be fed up with what the situation is right now, you know, and not just barring this administration, just we’ve seen it right for decades. We’ve known the answer. I’m a huge West Wing fan, and so we’ve known what the solutions are for a while. 

Kathryn Edwards  30:59  

And you know, you asked me earlier about in our you know what it’s been like being on social media and taking this more public turn away from kind of classical research economics life. And I think one thing that has never ceased to surprise me is the number of people who would be who don’t know what you and I know. If I say, like, oh, free school lunch is going to help with nutrition, but it really helps with test scores. Because, you know, hunger isn’t an annual target. You’ve got to hit hunger in children three to four times a day, and the more hungry a kid is, the worse they are behaved, and the worse they do in school. So, I mean, you’ve got this is, like, a very obvious problem that has a very clear solution, and you tell people that school lunch increases test scores. And I had one woman DM me, and she just said, I can’t believe that’s true. How have we not done it? And I was like, Well, remember that there might be a parent in there that doesn’t work when they could, and therefore no one should get school lunch like it’s this is a tipping point argument of how much people would prefer to punish parents they don’t like, even at the expense of investing in children. And so I have ended up having many conversations with people who are almost upset to learn how strong the data and evidence are in favor of certain policies.

Selley Abebe  32:12  

Absolutely. And again, in the nature of our work too, is the connectivity of it all. You know, we work on all issues impacting kids from maternal health all the way to young adults and families and so it really ranges the gamut, but I think it’s hard. Sometimes people are used to looking at things in silos, that it’s hard to make the connection between even immigration and School Outcome right. And something as stark as that where you might not be able to see the connection, but there is a connection.

Kathryn Edwards  32:44  

There is a connection. And I, I’ve, I’ve also loved having people trust me enough to share their own stories that if I go on Tiktok and I’ll say, here’s why, universal school lunch free. There is such a thing as a free lunch for children. The number of people that will respond with their own stories of having school lunch debt, of growing up in a household where their parents would take their lunch out of their backpack if they talked back and told them, you know, to come back for dinner. Parents who used food as punishment or a reward, kids who were bullied because they had like a different colored ticket, meaning that they were poor, and everyone at lunch knew it because they had the poor person’s ticket. And it’s remarkable to the number of just how much this conversation comes back with people sharing their own stories and feeling validated in knowing that the thing that they experienced was fixable. And they like to hear that it was fixable, like Jesus. Like the number of people who wrote like, especially on school lunch, the number of people who were like, Jesus, give them food. Do we even need to have evidence for this? I was like, some people do, but they, you know, they’re like, God, I was hungry all the time. Just give them more food. They can take my food. I don’t care. It was, it’s lovely to have this conversation where people rally around something in part because of their own experience, in part because of the data they learn, and in part because of the change that’s possible, and that can be really, that could just be really delightful, that whole conversation around all of that.

Selley Abebe  34:12  

I can see that all right, so we’re up at our last question we ask all our guests. And I know you’re going to have a good one, a song to add to our playlist. What keeps you motivated when you see a headline and you’re just feeling demoralized?

Kathryn Edwards  34:27  

I’m so glad you asked. I have about five songs to give. Okay, we’ll start with, we’ll start with one. Depends on how in my feelings I am. So I certainly think that there are two Saturns. There’s one by Stevie Wonder, and there’s one by SZA, and they are actually kind of beautiful compliments to each other. And they’re about a better world, one that we’re either striving for or mourning. And so I think being better on Saturn, there’s something, there’s something really nice about that, even though it’s, they’re both songs of loss. When I’m feeling really sassy, I will read the news while listening to Chappell Roans “My Kink Is Karma”. And there’s a line in the song where she says, “It’s comical the bridges you burn”. And the song is about an ex, who’s basically a flailing disaster. And she Yeah, my kink is karma, and like, she’s just basically reveling in how much they’re spiraling. And, yeah, I mean, you, you’re reading the news about like we’re making the State Department buy cyber trucks. And there’s something about it, like, man, you aren’t even trying to do a good job. And there’s this, I can hear it in my head. It’s comical. The bridges you burn.

Selley Abebe  35:41  

I love it. I don’t even have anything else. This was perfect.

Kathryn Edwards  35:46  

I mean, none of us can afford the rights to Chappell Roan. I mean, we don’t get to don’t get to play. We don’t get to do that for the outro.

Selley Abebe  35:52  

But it will be on the playlist forever. 

Kathryn Edwards  35:56  

Yeah, I love hearing about the playlist.

Selley Abebe  35:58  

Kathryn, thank you so much for your time.

Kathryn Edwards  35:59  

Thank you all so much for having me.

Selley Abebe  36:03  

Whew. That was a ride. And if you’re still with me, thank you. These are the kind of conversations that shift something that make other things click. This system wasn’t built with every family in mind, but it can be rebuilt. Together. If you felt that too, share the episode. Text it to somebody, host it, talk about it. That’s how the work spreads. Also, if it hasn’t clicked for you yet, you have to, have to, have to follow Kathryn. Find her on Instagram or Tiktok or YouTube with her handle, @keds_economist. I’m Messellech Abebe, reminding you that an ambassador for kids doesn’t mean knowing all the answers. It just means refusing to accept a world where kids get less than what they need to thrive. Speaking of kids is by First Focus on Children. It’s produced by Windhaven Productions and Bluejay Atlantic. Elizabeth Windom is our supervising producer. Julia Windom is our editor, and Jay Woodward is our senior producer. For more about this episode, visit firstfocus.org.